[Kat]

Salaams All

Its typical of asian families that the brother in-law is accepted to joke around with his elder brothers wife. It could be his elder cousins wife or anyone else he regards as an older brother who has a wife.

I have seen people joking with their bhabi and some of the discussions and jokes are very explicit and filthy.

Also it is accepted to get physical in terms of the joking and I have seen this as well, often unintentionally certain parts of the body is touched, but since its only joking and messing about it is seen as normal.

The result of such joking and messing about is that it sometimes leads to fornication and again I have heard of many such cases. The child of such a liason is brought up not knowing who the father is and the real father does not know that his nephew/neice is actually his son/ daughter.

I would like to know the views of other members on this:

How can we prevent such practices?

How do we explain to our parents/ elders who are pious in terms of their ibadat that such things is haram?

And have you seen or experienced such cultural practices?

This post has been edited by Kat: 04 August 2007 - 06:29 PM

[aaargh]

Speak with your adhab that it is wrong but also do not be paranoid because we are surrounded by imperfections and we do not yet live in a perfect society that understands these things.

[Ibn As-Sabil]

Quote

Its typical of asian families that the brother in-law is accepted to joke around with his elder brothers wife. It could be his elder cousins wife or anyone else he regards as an older brother who has a wife.

I have seen people joking with their bhabi and some of the discussions and jokes are very explicit and filthy.

Also it is accepted to get physical in terms of the joking and I have seen this as well, often unintentionally certain parts of the body is touched, but since its only joking and messing about it is seen as normal.

The result of such joking and messing about is that it sometimes leads to fornication and again I have heard of many such cases. The child of such a liason is brought up not knowing who the father is and the real father does not know that his nephew/neice is actually his son/ daughter.

for real? i dont think i have any sister in laws and i've never heard of such things nor witnessed this man, astagfriliha is sounds disgusting though.

[Exquisite]

Assalamu alaykum

Great topic as usual brother

Well in my family i haven't seen such practices alhamdulillah, and inshaAllah i don't want these sort of practices to creep in either.

But this is a bit similar to the sort of relationship you should have with your cousin brothers and sisters right?

For brothers you wouldnt be a mahram to your bhabi nor to your cousin sister
For sisters your dhulabhai(brother in law) and cousin brother wouldnt be your mahram

so that means the relationship we have with them should be formal, and no unnecessary free mixing shud take place between the two parties.

i dont have a dhulabhai yet (soon inshaaAllah) but when they did come to our house all necessary measures were taken when dealing with non-mahrams, such as our dress code, we had to be covered up properly so hijab and jilbab and also just the "salams" were exchanged.

But i have seen other people/sisters who have that very "close" relationship with their dhulabhais and how brother kat has mentioned filthy jokes are exchanged, play punches are thrown etc the quote "the in law is death" comes to mind
`Uqbah Ibn `Aamir, may Allah be pleased with him, quotes Allah's Messenger as saying, "Beware of entering upon women." A man from the Ansar said, "O Messenger of Allah! What about Al-Hamu,
or the wife’s in-law (the brother of her husband or his nephew, etc.)?"
The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, replied: “The in-law of the wife is death itself.”
Sahih Al-Bukhari, vol. 7, Book of Nikah (Marriage), Hadith no. 159
cuz the brother in law has much greater interactions with the sister in laws then any other non-mahrams, so there is the potential for so much fitnah to occur, which means the necessary precautions need to be taken.

how can we prevent such practices?

well firstly, the parents need to put up the barrier and not let their kids mingle unnecessarily with their cousin brothers/sisters and dhulabhais/bhabis
secondly, the individuals concerned need to be clear as to what is allowed and what isnt, alhamdulillah our cousin brothers have learnt to knock on our doors before they come in, instead of just rushing in, which gives us time to put on our hijabs.

[4-Ever-Euphemistic]

Another excellent thread mashAllah.

Seing that a brother in law /sister in law is a ghair mahram the relatioship between ones Bhabhi/brother in law should be cut clear.

1)The most appropiate approach would be that one keeps his/her ties with his/her fellow bhabhi/brother in law as such
that there is practically no need for any unecessary interaction.

2)Another way could be the semi attached familes if they could be split,one of the very common means to such interactions are
to live with ones in-law seing that for a wife its her husbands fellow single brother/s or married brother/s.And for the husband his sister in law seing that
if he has fellow married brothers!
This hardly takes palce but you do have some guys who are practially dependent on their in laws being the girls family,thus
they would live in the very house which a number of times has more girls (wifes sisters) thus this could lead to critical situations!

In conclusion getting a seperate house would be one way to deal with this (if the husbands has fellow brothers living with their parrents)

[~Sanah~]

walaikumassalaam wrwb...
yep thts so true...
unfortunately, its soooo common here in india. n infact it appears to b strange if the brother in-law doesnt joke around with the bhabhi..so freely tht they find nothin wrong in holding hands or even pulling cheeks. n u'll always c da brother in-law's arm around the bhabhi or atleast on her shoulder. this is very much against the shariah n a sin.

i have read a hadith in which the our beloved Prophet Sallallaahu alaihi wa sallam said, "It's better for a man to get nailed on the forehead than to touch the palm of a strange woman(na-mehrim)."

i see quite a lot of that happenin among my relatives n family frndz.
n thats not only with the bhabhi'z..its jus tooo common among da cousin brothers n sisters.
u'll get to see a lot of them shakin hands wid each other, huggin, pullin cheeks, hittin each other...n most commonly, da cousin bro havin an arm around da cousin sis.

i think the best way to avoid gettin into these practices is to maintain a dignified attitude.. dont get too free...maintain some distance from them while speakin. at da same time dont appear cold or rude. they'll notice this approach of urs n wont cross da lines. i do this myself n alhamdulillah it really works.

abt tellin da pious elders tht its haraam..i think we must make them realize it without offendin them. like we can ask them a question lyk if its ok to get close or get physical in terms of jokin with da bhabhi or other na-mehram. while they answer they might realize wht they r doing.
if we tell any1 straightaway tht its wrong n all, it might not take effect...coz nowadays this practice has bcome really common n ppl dont care if its forbidden.

This post has been edited by SanCharmz18: 04 August 2007 - 05:43 PM

[Fathima Az Zahra]

assalamu alaikum,

Well unfortunately indopak muslims insist upon mimicing their cultural tradition of everyone living together under one roof like the waltons. Mimicking this in our native lands where large houses can easily be afforded with multiple floors and privacy is fine, but mimicking this in your typical boxed terraced house or tiny flat is absurd. There will be no privacy, especially between married couples,and even the most devout person would find they are compromising their modesty without meaning to. So should bhabis be living in the same house as unmarried mature brother in laws, is this wise?

No one is suggesting that all these bhabis or even women, are not to be trusted, and will be sexually tempted with the smallest bait from a non mahram. But isn't this a reason why our faith forbids living in this manner to protect women and and men against all types of sensory Zina, not just fornication it self. I've read articles upon articles of ppl in this situation asking scholars for advice, they often say it is not permitted to live like this, unless it is completely unavoidable.

In the case of the families i know it is avoidable, but they value their cultural values so much they will never permit their bhabis to get separate housing, that would be as if she is effectively stealing their son away from the parents. The bhabi is supposed to remain with the in laws. Lets be honest she is there in our culture not just to look after the elderly in laws, but also any sister or bro in laws and other extended family. She is the domestic hands. That might not go down well here, but it's the truth whether we admit it or not.

So this cultural stubborness will lead to bhabis and bro in laws becoming casual in their speech, behaviour and even dress in the presence of each other. Bhabis have ot either remain in their bedrooms or sit with the mother/father in laws when she has free time, and that's not something every bhabi can do it's very difficult. It's like living in a prison.

Personal experience we have 2 bhabis in our house. 1 is there temporary, said they were moving but stayed on longer than expected...get out! lol. The other 1 was initially there to stay permanent but all the family including moi have said it's best they move out. coz they have marital problems like any couple but they tend to drag the rest of the family into it. we think it would be healthier for them as a couple if they moved into their own home.

as for joking around yes, my brothers like to have a joke, as do i. They shouldn't i know but that's just how they are they're not behaving like that out of cultural norms, they used to be the same with me. also they are not practising so perhaps that explains it.


One of my brothers is practising so even though he likes to have a laugh he doesn't with the bhabis. In fact im rather proud of him, he's my fave bro. He leaves the room if he knows one of the sis in laws wants to chill in the living room.I've never seen him sitting with them he doesn't feel at ease i can tell. the others aren't practising so if they were advised i don't think they'd pay heed, besides my parents have the same attitude. To them it's like the bhabis are part of the family now treat them the same.

As for the filthy jokes and physical contact none of that happens my brothers aren't like that, and my parents would go balistic, we've not be raised to think these are acceptable norms. So i've never heard it in my own house but my sis has told me stories about her bro in laws and other male cousins just as soon as she was married off. many jokes are sexually explicit, i was and still am shocked when i hear such things. Our ppl lurrrve to scream about girls covering their heads, or putting a scarf around their neck for modesty, but all this modesty goes out with the dishwater when it's regarding speech, it's really vile.

I think first you should attempt to advise them this kind of behaviour goes against islamic manners, and explain why. If that doesn't work, which i'm sure it won't there's nothing left to do but to humiliate them publically. when a filthy joke is made it's usually an innuendo, so be blatant and make sure they are embarrassed, i doubt they'll repeat it least not in your presence. humiliation works wonders with bengali elders try it, i have, knocks them into place. Our elders never want to listen to those younger than them even when they may be right in their assertions, coz they believe young uns should keep quiet it's not their place to talk. Least that's my experience.

[Sadia.]

Errrr......I don't have a bhabi, but would this apply to like your brother-in-law too? coz to my sisters and I, my brother-in-law is like my brother. It's not that 'You're my sisters husband' thing, he's like my very own brother. Alhumdulillah, there's nothing bad going on. Oh, another thing, he's not really counted as our Mahram, but since he's like my brother, and lives in my house 24/7, would that be like haraam? Coz i mean, he's been with us for 5 years now...

[Fathima Az Zahra]

i dont know about haram sis i wouldn't go so far as saying that. But obviously you have to maintain hijab around him if you wear one already coz even though he may feel like your brother in relationship faith wise he's regarded as a non mahram.

I know what you mean about your bro in law being like a brother, i feel like that too, and i never lived with him. Like when i began wearing niqab he didn't understand why i had to cover my face in front of him, since he'd known me from when i was a kid and treated me like his own sister. I felt bad, and still do but that's just how it's got to be, i can;t make one rule for him and another for all other men, id feel like such a hypocrite. So i kno it's difficult.

[Sadia.]

Jazaakum'allah khair for that sis. But, he's home 24/7, and at home, you can't expect us to cover our heads all day long, u know - so i guess simple stuff like that, that we've never taken notice of before, does become erm... inconvenient...

[Sadia.]

^^ What BAD advice!!! I'd never think of doing that to him! Maybe to all my other 4-brother-in-law's-to-come, they don't hold a speacial status that my present brother-in-law holds

[~Sanah~]

lol..
yep sis juman... if u suddenly start hijab in front of ur bro in-law, it might b inconvenient. it might even seem strange to him or da other family members.. but sis its not tough u kno..

like here at my place, da gals dont cover their heads in front of da cousins. i'm da first one at my place to start observin hijaab alhamdulillah..no other gal among my relatives does it. like when i had started it ..a few aunts used to look at me as if i'm an alien lol . bt as i ws so comfortable n confident in hijaab too ..they stopped reacting to it. its actually our attitude that counts. if we start coverin our heads n still look cool n approachable then ppl wont react much. n on being questioned, reply casually..say ur more comfortable dis way.

do try it sis...it worked fr me alhamdlh

This post has been edited by SanCharmz18: 04 August 2007 - 07:01 PM