Warning: Illegal string offset 'html' in /home3/c7gen/public_html/cache/skin_cache/cacheid_20/skin_topic.php on line 909

Warning: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /home3/c7gen/public_html/cache/skin_cache/cacheid_20/skin_topic.php:909) in /home3/c7gen/public_html/admin/sources/classes/output/formats/html/htmlOutput.php on line 114

Warning: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /home3/c7gen/public_html/cache/skin_cache/cacheid_20/skin_topic.php:909) in /home3/c7gen/public_html/admin/sources/classes/output/formats/html/htmlOutput.php on line 127
Apostate uncle - 7th Century Generation - Page 2

Jump to content


- - - - -

Apostate uncle


32 replies to this topic

#16 Bara' ibn Maalik

    Formerly "walter kovacs"

  • Brothers
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,282 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 13 September 2011 - 11:46 AM

"... kind of like reproduction before marriage results in death penalty, but without khialfah or even a having a minor islamic ruling like arabia they cant get the death pnalty so best to advise them to ask for forgiveness," [salaam]

no thats wrong. sex before marriage is not death penalty - please clarify what you mean exactly for the guest.

#17 Salaam

    Official Rebel Leader of BoB

  • Brothers
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15,925 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Muslim Capital of Europe

Posted 14 September 2011 - 11:20 AM

View PostBara' i'bn malik, on 13 September 2011 - 11:46 AM, said:

"... kind of like reproduction before marriage results in death penalty, but without khialfah or even a having a minor islamic ruling like arabia they cant get the death pnalty so best to advise them to ask for forgiveness," [salaam]

no thats wrong. sex before marriage is not death penalty - please clarify what you mean exactly for the guest.


The zina which incurs the hadd punishment

I read on a fatwa site about a young man who engaged in all kinds of sexual actions with a girl apart from penetration. What is the ruling on this in Islam? Is he subject to the hadd punishment for zina? Is he regarded as having committed zina with her? If he marries her, will that be regarded as expiation for him? What does he have to do in order to repent? The reply on that site, or as I understood it, was that he is regarded as a zaani (fornicator, adulterer) because the one who approaches a haraam deed is like the one who does it.

Praise be to Allaah.



When should the hadd punishment for zina be carried out on a man?

When does a person deserve the hadd punishment for zina? Is it due when the two circumcised parts meet? Is it when there is sexual intimacy without penetration, i.e., when the man emits semen outside the vagina as some people do when they do not want a pregnancy to occur, or is it only incurred when full intercourse takes place?.

Praise be to Allaah.

The hadd punishment for zina is incurred when the head of the ***** enters the vagina. In that case the two circumcised parts have met, i.e., the site of the man’s circumcision and the site of circumcision in the female. If penetration takes place, then this is the zina which incurs the hadd punishment, whether the man ejaculates or not, or if he penetrates to this extent then ejaculates outside, and whether his ***** is erect or not.

It says in al-Mawsoo’ah al-Fiqhiyyah (24/23), explaining the conditions of the hadd punishment for zina on which the fuqaha’ are agreed: There is no difference of opinion among the fuqaha’ that in order for the hadd punishment to be incurred, the head of the ***** has to disappear into the vagina. If it does not enter it at all or only part of it enters, then there is no hadd punishment because that is not intercourse. There is no stipulation that ejaculation must take place or that the ***** must be erect at the time of penetration. The hadd punishment must be carried out whether he ejaculated or not, and whether his ***** was erect or not. End quote.

Secondly:

This does not mean that a person may be negligent about committing haraam actions so long as they do not reach the level of zina! Rather the intention here is simply to define the zina that incurs the hadd punishment. Being alone with a non-mahram woman, touching her or kissing her are all undoubtedly haraam, and the Muslim must avoid such actions for fear of the punishment of Allaah sooner or later, in this world or in the Hereafter.

We ask Allaah to guide us and make us pious and chaste.

And Allaah knows best.
Islam Q&A




Firstly:

In the case of zina, the hadd punishment is conditional upon penetration, which means that the head of the ***** disappears into the vagina. If it does not penetrate it or only part of it penetrates it, then he is not subject to the hadd punishment.

It says in al-Mawsoo’ah al-Fiqhiyyah (24/23), explaining the conditions of the hadd punishment for zina on which the fuqaha’ are agreed: There is no difference of opinion among the fuqaha’ that in order for the hadd punishment to be incurred, the head of the ***** has to disappear into the vagina. If it does not enter it at all or only part of it enters, then there is no hadd punishment because that is not intercourse. There is no stipulation that ejaculation must take place or that the ***** must be erect at the time of penetration. The hadd punishment must be carried out whether he ejaculated or not, and whether his ***** was erect or not. End quote.

Secondly:

The things that lead to zina such as touching, kissing, and rubbing the private parts together without penetrating do not come under the ruling on zina, and the one who does them is not subject to the hadd punishment, rather he is to be punished and disciplined because he has done something that is haraam and plainly evil, and because these actions may lead him to commit true zina. Islam calls these actions zina, as in the hadeeth which was narrated by al-Bukhaari (6243) and Muslim (2657) from Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) who said: “Allaah has decreed for the son of Adam his share of zina which will inevitably catch up with him. The zina of the eye is looking and the zina of the tongue is speaking. The heart wishes and longs and the private part confirms that or denies it.”

Ibn Battaal (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: Looking and speaking are called zina because they invite one to true zina. Hence he said: “the private part confirms that or denies it.” End quote from Fath al-Baari.

See also question no. 81995.

Thirdly:

The one who has done such actions must repent to Allaah sincerely, by giving it up, regretting what he has done, resolving not to go back to it, and avoiding the causes and things that lead to that such as being alone with a woman, looking and shaking hands.

As for marrying that girl, if she is chaste and did not commit zina, or she did that but then repented to Allaah, then there is nothing wrong with marrying her. We do not find any evidence to suggest that this marriage will expiate this sin. Rather what will expiate it is repenting to Allaah and mending one's ways. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And verily, I am indeed forgiving to him who repents, believes (in My Oneness, and associates none in worship with Me) and does righteous good deeds, and then remains constant in doing them (till his death)”

[Ta-Ha 20:82]

Fourthly:

It is not correct to say that approaching a haraam deed is like doing it. Rather this is subject to further discussion.

If a person thinks of doing an evil deed then refrains from it, he will be rewarded, as it says in the hadeeth narrated from Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, relating from his Lord, may He be glorified and exalted: “Allaah decreed good deeds and bad deeds, then He explained that. Whoever thinks of doing a good deed then does not do it, Allaah will write it down as one complete good deed. If he thinks of doing a good deed and then does it, Allaah [may He be glorified and exalted] will write it down between ten and seven hundred fold, or many more. If he thinks of doing a bad deed then he does not do it, Allaah will write it down as one complete good deed, and if he thinks of it then does it, Allaah will write it down as one bad deed.”

Narrated by al-Bukhaari (6491), Muslim (131)

If he thinks of doing an evil deed and resolves to do it, and starts to do it, or tries to do it, but is not able to complete it due to external factors, then he is sinning and is not rewarded, as is indicated by the hadeeth: “If two Muslims confront one another with their swords then the killer and the victim will be in Hell.” I said: “O Messenger of Allaah, the killer’s (case is clear), but what about the one who is killed?” He said: “He was keen to kill his companion.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari (31), Muslim (2888).

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: This hadeeth gives the answer to the question of whether a person will be accountable for what he intends to do. Some people say he will be accountable for it if his intention reached the level of resolve. Some say that he is not accountable. The answer is that if the intention reaches the level of resolve, then it must be accompanied by some words or deeds (in order for a person to be accountable for his intention). End quote.

Those who said that he would be accountable for his intention quoted as evidence the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), “If two Muslims confront one another with their swords then the killer and the victim will be in Hell.” But this is not evidence that one will be accountable merely for thinking of it, for he said that about two men who each fought with the intention of killing the other, but this is not merely resolve, rather this is resolve accompanied by action, but he was unable to complete his goal. This person will be accountable according to the consensus of the Muslims. If a person strives to drink alcohol and tries by his words and deeds to do that but fails, he is a sinner according to the consensus of the Muslims. He is like one who drinks even if he does not drink. Similarly if a person strives to commit zina or steal and so on, in his words and deeds, but fails to do it, then he is a sinner like the one who does it. The same applies to murder, and so on. End quote from Majmoo’ al-Fataawa (14/122).

This applies if the sin is committed and incurs punishment in the Hereafter. As for the punishment that results from committing sins in this world, such as the hadd punishment for zina, he is not to be punished in this manner except if he commits true zina, not if he tries to commit zina but fails.

And Allaah knows best.
Islam Q&A

#18 Bara' ibn Maalik

    Formerly "walter kovacs"

  • Brothers
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,282 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 14 September 2011 - 02:14 PM

salaam salaam

what do the evidences state in regard to the hadd for Zina for te one who is married and the one who is unmarried?

there is a clear distinction on the hadd there right?

#19 ghazala

    Comet

  • Sisters
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,217 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:ALLAH(swt) creation

Posted 14 September 2011 - 03:16 PM

^ are u talking abt number of count in lashes brother ? just wondering ....

#20 Salaam

    Official Rebel Leader of BoB

  • Brothers
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15,925 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Muslim Capital of Europe

Posted 14 September 2011 - 07:43 PM

View PostBara' i'bn malik, on 14 September 2011 - 02:14 PM, said:

salaam salaam

what do the evidences state in regard to the hadd for Zina for te one who is married and the one who is unmarried?

there is a clear distinction on the hadd there right?


wasallam yes their is

2 – If the woman is a virgin – i.e., she is not married yet or the marriage contract has been done but her husband has not yet consummated the marriage with her – then the punishment is one hundred lashes and exile from her country for a year, as stated in the hadeeth of ‘Ubaadah ibn al-Saamit, who narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Receive (teaching) from me. Allah has ordained a way for those (women). When an unmarried male commits adultery with an unmarried female (they should receive) one hundred lashes and banishment for one year. And in the case of a married male committing adultery with a married female, they shall receive one hundred lashes and be stoned to death.”

(Narrated by Muslim, 1690).

http://www.islam-qa....981/hadd%20zina

#21 Bara' ibn Maalik

    Formerly "walter kovacs"

  • Brothers
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,282 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 14 September 2011 - 10:24 PM

jazakAllahu khairan

#22 Salaam

    Official Rebel Leader of BoB

  • Brothers
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15,925 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Muslim Capital of Europe

Posted 15 September 2011 - 10:09 AM

Imran b. Husain reported that a woman from Juhaina came to and she had become pregnant because of adultery. She said: I am pregnant as a result of Zina. Prophet Mohammad said: "Go back, and come to me after the birth of the child". After giving birth, the woman came back to prophet Muhammad, saying: "please purify me now". Next,prophet Mohammad said, "Go and suckle your child, and come after the period of suckling is over." She came after the period of weaning and brought a piece of bread with her. She fed the child the piece of bread and said, "Oh Allah's Apostle, the child has been weaned." At that prophet Mohammad pronounced judgment about her and she was stoned to death.


regarding this hadith was this sahabiyah who got punnished married or not

#23 ghazala

    Comet

  • Sisters
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,217 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:ALLAH(swt) creation

Posted 15 September 2011 - 10:15 AM

^ bro.salaam there is a continuation of the this story ... can u please post it too....

Allahu alim ...

coz as far as i remember she was told to leave the child to a guardian and then come ....

also after she was lashed ... she died ... and tears flowed .... then he(saw) she is now purified and is better then many of us here .... subhanALlah ....

and may this be the coz of her being away from the fire of hell ....

something like that ...

Allahu alim

May Allah for give me if i said it wrong .... or mixed up something by mistake ameen ....

#24 Salaam

    Official Rebel Leader of BoB

  • Brothers
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15,925 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Muslim Capital of Europe

Posted 15 September 2011 - 11:56 AM

View Postghazala, on 15 September 2011 - 10:15 AM, said:

^ bro.salaam there is a continuation of the this story ... can u please post it too....

Allahu alim ...

coz as far as i remember she was told to leave the child to a guardian and then come ....

also after she was lashed ... she died ... and tears flowed .... then he(saw) she is now purified and is better then many of us here .... subhanALlah ....

and may this be the coz of her being away from the fire of hell ....

something like that ...

Allahu alim

May Allah for give me if i said it wrong .... or mixed up something by mistake ameen ....


http://www.7cgen.com...ndpost&p=594914

#25 Guest_Al-wala_*

  • Guests

Posted 17 September 2011 - 07:16 AM

Alhumdulilah i gave him a bit of dawah the other day. I invited him to an islamic event but he said that thats only for weak ppl. He also started using the word "crap" so i asked him why he always uses that word wenever Islam is being referred to. I asked him whether he is a muslim or not. He told me he doesnt need to label him self as long as he believes in the oneness of God.Please pray for him.

#26 Salaam

    Official Rebel Leader of BoB

  • Brothers
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15,925 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Muslim Capital of Europe

Posted 17 September 2011 - 01:08 PM

tell him believing in one god is not enough, you have to live your life the way that one god (allah)has chosen aswell

#27 Guest_Al-wala_*

  • Guests

Posted 25 September 2011 - 08:16 AM

Quote

Is he not an apostate?How do i deal with a person who doesnt pray and ridicules the sayings of the prophet(saw)?What are some ways that i can give him dawah?


Most probably he is an apostate cos he made mockery and "riddah" is identified by mockery as one.Maybe I won't even smile at him and avoid him cos I have given him dawah but seems like he is paying no heed to it.

More advice on the above 3questions is welcomed and needed. JazakumAllahu khiran.

#28 neelu

    Boulder

  • Sisters
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,690 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:uk

Posted 25 September 2011 - 01:48 PM

Oh man I had dealings with a cousin who's a lot like your uncle. I'm curious as to why he was fasting? Was it just because the rest of the family were doing it so he didn't want to rock the boat? Or was it because there's still some remnants of belief still there in spite of his doubts? I wouldn't be so quick to assume he's an apostate as his actions of occassionally praying and fasting contradict his words about embracing Christianity- which he may have said out of frustration, Allahu alam as to whether he really meant it.

There are a few things you need to realise. First of all, don't send him reminders about what is in the Quran or what hadith evidences say on an issue. His first problem is that he is questioning basic beliefs and a person who questions basic beliefs will not have the foundation of proper understanding of iman in which case he wont see any reason to show any respect for what is in the Quran or hadith evidences anyway- so reminding him of Quran and sunnah really wont help at all so don't even bother.

If you want to bring him back to the deen, then you need to get to the root of the issue, of understanding belief in Allah (swt) etc. Alhamdullilah it is a good sign that he mentions he believes in Oneness of God- this in itself would imply he couldn't be Christian because they believe in Trinity and suggest God has a son (astaghfirullah).

I keep sensing what he is saying is more of a reaction or a sense of frustration (my cousin went through this as well) based on a sense of disillusionment about Islam. Most of that disillusionment comes from being around lots of Muslims and finding that often the seemingly religious ones are the biggest fraudsters and backstabbers. It becomes a negative association that can mislead people to think that the closer a person gets to Islam, the more hardened, less compassionate, more selfish etc etc a person becomes and they'd rather keep a distance from all that and try to at least be a good person themselves. So it's quite likely these problems started off as a series of negative interactions with bad Muslims (made worse by the fact that some Muslims will twist evidences to justify bad behaviour too) and then the person feels put off Islam itself, even though true devotion to Islam obviously is not synonymous with that sort of fraudulent, deceitful behaviour.

That kind of thinking sows a seed in a person's mind that if those who seem close to Islam are that bad, then they start to wonder if something is wrong with Islam itself and start picking holes in certain Islamic rules and evidences that don't sit right with them. They develop a different sense of right and wrong based on their own albeit compassionate but sort of humanist type views.

I feel like you're asking questions that don't need to be asked right now. The question of whether he is an apostate or not needn't be answered as yet. Make dua for him, give him time, from time to time ask him how he feels, what he thinks. Ask him those questions without getting angry at his answers and without passing judgement, just provide a listening ear to get to the root of what kind of mentality he has- then you will have a fuller idea of what kind of thinking you're trying to refute and where to start.

I feel like you don't need to ask the question about whether to smile at him either. I think you should come across as an approachable person to him if you want to continue giving dawah and keep the channels of communication open, but if he goes too far into stubbornly persisting with misguidance in future, maybe then you can think about whether you'd want any contact with him at all or not.

I've already put some pointers about how to approach him in terms of dawah. Start off with the basics, the way you'd start off with the basics when maybe speaking to a non Muslim who hasn't yet learned stuff like why we believe in God (swt) or proof of Quran and basic stuff like that, but at the same time bear in mind he's been raised as a Muslim so he wont be as naive as someone who wasn't exposed to the deen at all so don't insult his intelligence. You'll have to do a lot of your own research and reading cos' my guess is he's already contemplated these issues a lot already.

This particular paragraph regarding dawah advice is more in the context of speaking to other non practising or semi secularised Muslims who still have some sentiment for the deen but don't bother implementing most of it. It is an important angle I need to mention as I've come across this mentality before. I've heard certain Muslims practically boast that they do not pray or practise Islam but that's okay because "at least I have a good heart and I'm better than those who grow beards, become haji and pray five times a day but behind closed doors get up to xyz horrible things"- or else they'll say they don't need to pray cos' they have a good heart. My response to such thinking is "Yes I know haji so and so prays and then later gets up to terrible things and Allah (swt) will account him for both his good deeds and bad deeds- but how does that excuse the fact that YOU are not practising... Allah (swt) will ask YOU about YOUR deeds, He wont ask YOU about THEM". It's as though a hypocrites misdeeds give them a carte blanche or excuse to persist in haraam themselves so remind them about the fact that the seemingly religious Muslims doing bad deeds doesn't absolve anyone else of their own responsibility to obey Allah (swt). One other thing I ask such people is that why do they talk as though traits such as honesty and piety are somehow mutually exclusive! I hear stuff like "oh I don't pray but at least I'm honest" and I say "why don't you do both!"- why do people feel like they can only have one but without the other? That's all I can think of for now.

Edited by neelu, 25 September 2011 - 01:54 PM.


#29 Guest_Al-wala_*

  • Guests

Posted 28 September 2011 - 12:51 PM

SubhanAllah wa-Alhumdulilah!He called up and wanted to seek guidance from me for the situation that hes going through. Allah is listening to our prayers indeed. Please make dua for him and for me that I may be able to give him good dawah through hikmah.

I think all of should make an effort to correct the people we see on the wrong path and not fear their rejection. Our dawah will certainly hit them somewhere or the other. And ofcourse no one has the ability to guide except AllahSWT.

#30 The Blessed

    Starting Member

  • Members
  • 14 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Dubai, United Arab Emirates

Posted 29 September 2011 - 01:13 PM

SubhanAllah, May all praise be to Allah.
May Allah guide both the author and his/her uncle to the right path and Jannath, and save them from hell fire.

As for opinion, I agree with most of what Neelu has said. JazaakAllahil Khair.




Reply to this topic


This post will need approval from a moderator before this post is shown.

  

1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users

Original Skin by CrustyGeek/ReSkinned by Dumbledore for TPPSkinning.com

All communications made available as part of this forum and any opinions, advice, statements, views or other information expressed are solely provided by, and the responsibility of, the person posting such communication and not of 7cgen.com or any of it's administration team. Click here for full disclaimer.